That she was conceived without original sin? Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. Yeah. No, I dont think you are following my point. This is really great. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. Yeah, sure. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. So yeah, this is awesome. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. Thanks. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. So my quick mini rebuttal. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Im running out of time. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Thanks for the super chat. Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Its a way to begin exploration of it. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. All right. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. They would be sons from another marriage. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. - Fr. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. All right. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. So then it isnt literally saying every single human has sinned or every man has sinned. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? But there are many problems with this speculative argument. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. Really enjoying this. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. He became sinner. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. I mean, I have to really think about that. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. 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