In their day, they weren't particularly valuable, which is why they're strewn all over Boston. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you start to spend more time in New York, or that's auction? And often, they were strange variations on Chinese stories made for an American market or made for a British market or made for a French market. Time goes by, and they use your name, yeah. So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." And then I would see that they would bid up to a record price, and then the next week you'd see a very similar one. I mean, I think you'll see. JUDITH RICHARDS: and some Flemish Baroque, too. JUDITH RICHARDS: When did thisand so that's. Being self taught, he practised with water colours and started his career as a commercial illustrator. [Affirmative.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was fine with that because, for me, it was aesthetically pleasing. I mean, it startedso you started collecting in that area or just that one piece? JUDITH RICHARDS: Did Skinner know what was happening? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You're putting a value judgment on it that I, you know, I'm uncomfortable making entirely myself. And now the painting hangs at the Worcester Art Museum so it can be seen, and basically, you know, after all of that gunk was stripped off, the painting that emerged is extraordinary, so we're very excited. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And my grandfather, similarly, was not particularly book-learned but was an incredible engineer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know that Colnaghi has managed to navigate those waters for the last 60-odd years since the originalyou knowwell, even more than 60 for thesince the original founders were out of the picture. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And these folks were traders. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Cliff Schorer on June 7, 2018, at the Archives of American Art New York City offices. JUDITH RICHARDS: So what were some of the early key purchases, and how did theywhy were they goals then and, JUDITH RICHARDS: how did they appear? CLIFFORD SCHORER: And lots of it. In the archive there are astonishing surprises. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I remember there were a few what I would consider to be ambitious acquisitions that I made that I was very, very pleased with, where there wasn't as much competition as I anticipated. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. You know, I've managed to find what is sort of seeded in the ground between Washington, D.C., and Boston, and Maine, you know, driving around like crazy every time there's an auction. So rather than go back to schoolI wasn't going back to schoolI went and got a programming job at Lifeline Systems, which was a very short, concentrated project. My grandfather, who was a very technical manvery poorly educated, but a very technical manhe could take apart any machine and put it back together. And I met wonderful people; I saw them all last night. They had a big sale in the '80s, and just three or four weeks ago they had a sale of Dodo Dorrance, who was the daughter of Jack Dorrance, and in that sale was a beautiful Cezanne, really beautiful Cezanne. 15 records for Clifford Schorer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you own any van Dycks, or have you? So my mother and father divorced when I was very young. You know. Did the mission change at all during the years that you were there? [00:12:00]. So, you know, when bold ideas come, I'm the kind of, you know, the vetting board for the bold ideas, and I enjoy that. There are a number of hats I had to take off. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, you know, there's still an auction wholesale-to-retail spread more because the presentation is slipshod and fast, and, you know, you're in a group of merchandise that goes across the counter on the same day. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In that area, I started reading a lot more of the sort of first-tier auction catalogues regularlyyou know, regularly. No, I was 15 and a half. I mean, I know it's an exciting moment; you start a business. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Now, that's where the museum world and my personal life intersected, because of the Worcester Art Museum. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then it moves to Amsterdam, you know. And I mean, he didn't speakI don't think there were too many words spoken about much. The discovery hinges on the unlikely meeting of two men: Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer who specializes in recovering the lost works of Old Masters, and Brainerd Phillipson, a. JUDITH RICHARDS: Had you had a chance to go to Europe by that time? Any object there that might have a mark. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Putting aside in storage happened organically, because by the time I was three years into my house, I had more than I could use in my house. They had The Taking of Christ by Procaccini; they had a Paulus Bor, who's a very, very rare Northern artist that I admire, and I had underbid the painting at auction. I'm not in Boston that often anymore, and I have no art in that house at all. So, yeah, they've been very sort of, again, inadvertent mentors. Nevertheless, do you get calls? JUDITH RICHARDS: I notice that there was a major contribution from, maybe, from your business to the Museum of Science. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. WeI think we borrowed institutional collections, too, which was a rare thing for a gallery. JUDITH RICHARDS: Could anything be done? And since I'm, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yeah, I think it'sI think we are scaled right now for the market we're in. I don't own them now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: when I bought the company that year. So, you know. They will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent." It was sort of the bookends of the exhibition. I rememberI remember in those days the things that I brought on Pan Amoh, my God. So I think back then it was much more about a buying strategy, and, you know, I think now I would say, Be very cautious and very slow, because now the market is created to separate you from your money and, JUDITH RICHARDS: And this applies to specifically Italian Baroque or any of the areas you've, CLIFFORD SCHORER: generally speaking, what's happened is the auction market, which used to be a wholesaler's market, has become a mass market, and as such, the marketing techniques employed have become mass-market marketing techniques. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's publish? The marketplace has sort of moved away from providing them a platform for that, because there weren't enough of them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. The things I brought into the passenger cabin. You know, you'd spend two days there every weekend. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, selling a 50,000 work when you have 800,000 in overheadif you're on a commission basis, you have to sell a lot of 50,000 works. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the insurance? And I thought, you know, We should buy that Cezanne, because it's one of his most Old Master-y Cezannes, and try to tie it in with [Nicolas] Poussin. [00:32:00]. He says, "No, I didn't." And I was so, Oh, my God, you know, that's incredible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: History. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? He bought the [Frans] Snyders HouseSnyders is the artist. And I wasI was really kind of bringing it all to conclusion. Or some of the 300? JUDITH RICHARDS: everything that's going on. And I got to the point whereand again, I'll beI'll stand corrected on this, because I know a collector in Boston who has a very strong opinion on what I'm about to saybut I ended my venture in Chinese export porcelain to my satisfaction, meaning that I couldn't go any further in that particular collecting area, other than to buy more expensive, singular examples of the same thing. Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, I want to talk about the gallery tomorrow. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did youdid you make all those design decisions yourself? I remember he was 90 when he bowled a 300. We did a Baroque-style porcelain fireplace by a Japanese artist named [Katsuyo] Aoki, this amazingly modern, white porcelain, beautiful fireplace. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were there particular acquisitions that you really were excited about that you discovered? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, 2004 or '05, yes. [Laughs.] And, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Probably about 10 years ago, where I just said, you know, maybe. You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." Rich Dahm, co-executive producer and head writer of The Colbert Report. JUDITH RICHARDS: Wow. The divorce began when I was four. Pronunciation of Clifford J. Schorer with 1 audio pronunciation and more for Clifford J. Schorer. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. Clifford Schorer (1966- ) is an art collector in Boston, Massachusetts and London, England. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. We drove my van, actually. And, frankly, after the story is lostand the story is what sells the picture, and then the picture is burned at auction; then it's worth half of what it was before you did that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We packed up everything to go down there. So, yes, I mean, obviously there is this interplay between the marketplace and the art historical importance. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. And she says, "Wait here." And recently, what I do is I actuallyI get involved with the construction projects for them, so I'm building their new buildings, which I love. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. I lived between New York and Martha's Vineyard. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think, you know, my life is here in the States, and, you know, Ithe fortunate thing is that I haven't quit my day job, because if I relied uponbecause the gallery is an unevena very uneven cash flow. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. Fellow collectors in the field? I mean, my rooms were very dark. Directory of Profiled Business People: Clifford Schorer Schochler, Christopher - Schroeer, Jordan > Schoppers, Lynn - Schorer, Deborah > Schorer, Brittany - Schorer, Clifford > Schorer, Clifford 1 Contacts I think there are 3- or 400,000 photographs in our archive, and if, JUDITH RICHARDS: This is the archive that's been acquired by the National. But I do think it wraps human history in a way that makes it exciting, but it also can still be beautiful in those settings. I mean, you know, it's just, you knowI think the next time it comes through the marketplace, it'll say, you know, "We gratefully acknowledge Ms. Neilson, who said it's by Crespi." [00:50:05]. Generally speaking, the book presentations are in Antwerp. I can't play anymore. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean you went down at 15? But even better, it led me later to the apartment of the descendant of the original commissioner of the painting, whom I found in Madrid, from whom I bought the last painting from that same series. He told mehe shared that with me when I was 26, which I had not known. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I spentat Boston University? I had businesses I was running to make money. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: So was your contribution focused on that installation and maintaining that object and any other objects you might, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's very complicated, but basically, JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, you don't need to. I just, you know. I wanted to start by asking you to say when and where you were born, and to talk about your immediate family, their names, and anyone else who was important to you in your family. JUDITH RICHARDS: You can be foolish when you're that age. [Laughs.] They would lay out their stamps and coins. He says, "You want to have lunch tomorrow?". CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. So they put Anthony Crichton-Stuart, who used to be Christie's head of Old Masters, in charge of Noortman Gallery. [00:20:00] Yes, there was, of course, The Massacre of The Innocents by Rubens, which made 45 million, and two days later, for a relative bargain, a van Dyck of that painting, done in the studio at the same time, came on the marketa drawing of that painting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think, in the past, they've been pretty good in the most important areas. It's a temple. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I, you know, I'll let, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'll let posterity decide that. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you were doing research and you were reading auction catalogues, those are catalogues with the sale prices written in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and we put a Reynolds. Then we did the Lotte Laserstein, the Weimar German show, where we borrowed from the German state institutions for the first time ever, as I understand it, as a private gallery, borrowed from museums, Berlin specifically. And so, yes, there are those amazing, you know, random fate intersections, but they're notthey're certainly not something that happen often enough to warrant, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Five years later, I might find a, you know, Salvator Rosa figure, or a print. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the path was getting very cluttered. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, if I fall off a bridge in the next few months, everything goes to the various museums. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay. Had you been thinking about it? I mean, certainly the little snippets of it. Are there light issues with the materials that you collect, and has that beenor had an impact on your home? Without synthetic fertilizers, it's impossible to feed the human race. I'm trying to think what other fairs we've done. Like, you knowand the same thing. Or not. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, the experiences, the moments, and all of that. So I had readI forgot which painting it was; it was the [Bernardo] Strozzi. So, you know, in the stamp world, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: more or less, the interest in earlier painting has declined somewhat, but perhaps not in specifically where you're looking. I probably should, but, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was stillI was still interested in stamps and coins. 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